02-22-2013 12:45 AM
We should stop pointing with finger at each other. And it is a pain that it is needed that we are here, discussing and comparing the work of others with ours instead of developing and improving our Apps. We are developers, not diplomats.
I can't agree that the calculator app which startet this thread is a single function app. But personally I would have still rejected it. But with a totally different reasoning, it doesn't met the design guidelines. A BB10 UI App has to have a Application Menu at the Top of the App with at least a single About button with a About screen. This is currently getting fixed, this was a obvious reason to reject it. We don't know if it was the single reason, but the feedback should be exact enought to point the developer at such drawbacks.
The feedback should be clear. And the rules should be the same for ALL developers. There are also Apps accepted for BFB which doesn't met the designguidelines in every aspect. At example the Types and Sizes of In App Icons: http://developer.blackberry.com/devzone/design/bb1
So sticking to the rules of the design guidelines are seems to be not THIS important or crucial than we thought. But we still can't ignor them.
Our main problem is we are lost in the dark after a rejection. This was also the reason I've written my essay about my ClipMan changelog. The most detailed changelog I've ever created and hopefully will ever create. Such additional community work shouldn't be needed.
02-22-2013 01:06 AM
I can't find a rule saying it MUST have an About link. In fact I didn't add that because I have 5 other screens that are a lot more important than the About screen.
I agree that the lack of an application menu (in retrospect) would be a good reason to reject the app which is why I promptly added one. Whether it's gonna get the app approved or not I think it's a definite improvement.
I guess STRICTLY speaking the app could even be rejected because the main UI is fully custom rather than made out of Cascades buttons and elements. But I'm quite confident that all users will agree that the current photorealistic UI looks better and more familiar ![]()
Basically I got nonsense feedback until I raised hell and the PM of the program chipped in with this:
1. The opening splash screen does not scale properly (see attached 223).
2. Not built for form factor.
a. There is empty space below www.l-marco.nl.
3. Use of BlackBerry 10 UI
a. Context Menu
i. I somehow once got into the context menu on a long press, but I can’t figure out how to get back into it.
1. This needs to be more apparent to end users.
ii. I seem to have been able to get the copy/paste selection dots to appear on the actual keys (see attached – 225).
1. This should not happen – no use case.
iii. When I have the copy/paste dots available, I can then long press to get the context menu.
b. Application Menu
i. You have no Settings (which might be OK, I don’t know enough about how RPNs work or what makes sense)
ii. Might be good to add a Help section (again if it makes sense).
1. Maybe include how to access the context menu.
iii. This is where any About information should go.
1. Example app version.
for 1) I explained that it works fine on my Dev Alpha and I'll need help figuring out why it doesn't on a Z10.
for 2) I explained that the slight black bars are actually anticipating the 720px height of future devices already.
for 3) I fixed the unwanted context menu (got rid of it since it's not needed in this app) and added an application menu with the stuff in it she mentioned.
Settings and Help were there but she couldn't find them. With the application menu in place everyone can.
The only thing I didn't quite get is what she means with 'Example app version'. I can't really make a 'lite' version of a calculator that makes sense.
Awaiting her reply.
Overall, this feedback is at least useful. All BBFB reviewers should give feedback like this right off the bat rather than oneliners or small paragraphs in broken English that don't even make sense in the app's context. I shouldn't have to raise hell and get a PM involved to get proper feedback.
Staff UI Prototyper (read: full-time hacker)
My BB10 apps: Screamager | Scientific RPN Calculator | The Last Weather App
02-22-2013 03:03 AM - edited 02-22-2013 03:09 AM
TheMarco wrote:I can't find a rule saying it MUST have an About link. In fact I didn't add that because I have 5 other screens that are a lot more important than the About screen.
![]()
As rigorous as the rejections are handled every recommendation in the rules are rather a absolutely must have than a recommendation.
http://developer.blackberry.com/builtforblackberry
"Use the Application Menu as the entry point to global actions and settings (Game apps exempt)"
And at least I were unable to turn it off in a cascades App. If you slide down from the top of the screen a black space appears and the menu snapps back. Feels ugly, bad design, bad user experience. => Rejection.
I don't know how your App behaves here. But the testers seem to have the opinion that the end user have the expectation at every App should appear there something, except at games.
Hairsplitting, I know. ![]()
This is I guess what is the hard stuff:
The other two points of the list are imho minor critical for our discussion. But here we have a link to the BB10 design guidelines.
http://developer.blackberry.com/design/bb10/
And there is where the party gets started.
And somewhere there I thought I read the advice to add at the top left corner of the Global Application Menu a Button to a About, or call it Help screen or something like this. If its a documentation, manual, like in your newest screenshot it should also be fine. Since the Design Guidelines are part of the BFBB criteria we have to stick to it. Thats it! (even if I'm currently unable to find this paragraph in this very long documentation)
This is also the reason I wonder why Apps got accepted which have icons included which doesn't met the design guidelines. So there is for sure someting like a gray Area.
Regarding the list of concerns you got in the meantime:
http://developer.blackberry.com/builtforblackberry
First point: "Built for form factor"
Apps and games should use the whole screen
Sadly the Z10 has the same screen as the DevAlpha. 768p, but we got asked to create our stuff also for 720p. You need to get it working at both resolutions. Perhaps add a border graphics for 768p screens in the design of the rest of the calculator which gets removed for 720p displays. The new Beta release has a target selector which may help to get this working but it was also doable at the current Gold release.
But to make it worse I have to add one more thing and I'm sorry to say this... But I really recommend to begin working on a layout which works also in portrait mode.
Look at the smallprint in the Terms and Conditions, paragraph 6:
http://developer.blackberry.com/builtforblackberry
UPGRADES:
Apps must be upgraded to be compatible with any new BlackBerry devices and operating systems (together, the “New Systems”) that become available. New Systems will be announced on the Website. If New Systems become available, VENDORs will be required to upgrade their App to comply with the New Systems (“Upgrades”). Upgrades must be submitted for Evaluation within ninety (90) days of the launch of the New System. If an Upgrade does not receive BFB Approval after its first submission, VENDOR will be permitted to fix it and re-submit that Upgrade up to two (2) more times. All Upgrades must have received BFB Approval within 120 days of the launch of the New System or the BFB Designation will be revoked. Allow up to ten (10) days for Upgrade approval. If VENDORs do not upgrade the Apps to the New Systems in a manner which is satisfactory to RIM, Designation will be revoked.
There will be soon a new System. The Dev Alpha C and the Q10. And you have 90 days to make your App working on a 720x720 screen after the Q10 got released.
Any Ideas how to do this?
My suggestion: Add a second (self invented) Button Layout which works in portrait. For the Z10 everything is fine and you should keep the Landscape layout the default. For the Q10 the portrait mode would perhaps work better. I would suggest to keep the display in a fixed position at the top of the screen and make the keyboard vertically scrollable.
I have (again) a own example, one of this ugly fast created port a thon apps (yeah, just for the money, I'm the bad guy) but it may show you now how something like this may work and feel.
http://appworld.blackberry.com/webstore/content/20
Just a suggestion. I guess I should stop here. No boredom during your weekend I guess. ![]()
It would be great if every developer would get such a detailed report. Currently maybe absolutely not doable. Too many submissions, not enought time, just too expensive. I hope we and BlackBerry will get to a point at which this is doable for everyone which applies to BFB and gets rejected.
02-22-2013 03:26 AM
While I can understand the reasoning behind the possibility of a portrait layout I will not do this unless I get explicitly told that a portrait layout is the only thing keeping me from getting BFBB. This app is emulating the look and feel of a real device that doesn't have a portrait layout.
This layout is familiar to literally anyone who would potentially buy this app.
Because the Q10 would be too much to skip I will for this device split the keyboard in 2 sections which can be swiped left/right. I believe that is a nice solution to the Q10 form factor. That is, if I get a Dev Alpha C. Without it I doubt I'll be able to get it to work.
Then about the black bars: I can't remember where but I most definitely remember a recommendation from RIM themselves to have slight black bars on 768px devices. After the Z10 the screens will be standardized to either 720x720 or 1280x720. I'm guessing the only 'upgraded' that will possibly happen at some point is 1920x1080 which is the same aspect ratio.
Staff UI Prototyper (read: full-time hacker)
My BB10 apps: Screamager | Scientific RPN Calculator | The Last Weather App
02-22-2013 04:34 AM
I understand your approach about the landscape layout. I just thought about a discussion I read at talk.maemo.org about the other calculator I posted screenshots about. And to be honest, the portrait layout from the screenshots doesn't look as well designed as the original. So anyway.
Your Idea to swipe the keyboard left and right at the DevAlphaC sounds also good to me, its a similar strategy. I agree its nearly impossible to do this without Hardware to test your code. There are always hidden surprises. Because of this I disagree also with some rules for the DevAlphaC for Amsterdam attendees. But thats not the topic over here.
I can also remember to read something similar about the 768p / 720p screen. I guess the plan was before to release only 720p devices for end customer, bis seems to have changed at some point. ![]()
My posting were anyway only 50% addressed to especially you and your App. The rules are valid for everyone. ![]()
02-22-2013 04:57 AM
TheMarco, perhaps you could let us know how you managed to 'raise hell' as I would also like the same level of feedback to progress.
Being in the UK I have tried several times to get through to anyone in the UK office with never a response.
With no sales of my app and with the present way of marketing apps broken, I'm at the point where I feel I've wasted the last few months of my life and will have to cut my losses while I can.
As has been mentioned by others, BlackBerries decision to go for quantity over quality in the last couple of months coupled with an inability to separate in any revenue driving way the wheat from the chaff is just another nail in what will ultimately be their coffin but at this present time appears to be mine.
Next time BlackBerry try this I will be ready with a port-a-thon app, my USP will be that my quiz app will only have 4 questions per app not 5, hang reputation. When I watched Alec give his talk in London (I was two rows back) I totally missed the part where he said we don't want you to spend time writing quality we just want the numbers, next time I will listen more carefully, of course it's unlikely to be for BlackBerry.
And unlike Peter who's stated he doesn't like to make a fuss, I sure as hell won't be leaving quietly.
02-22-2013 04:58 AM
Every Cascades apps could have the BFBB distinction, except the very simple/stupid ones like fart apps, one sound apps,...
If you look at BB World, there are a lots of apps ported from Android or iOs, but very few Cascades apps.
I think the problem is the 10K program. I understand BB needs to be very strict while approving apps for this program, but now it is over and BFBB is just a distinction.
We took the time to learn Cascades, some of us learned Java for BBOS and were said one day it's over, just learn Cascades or HTML5 if you want to develop apps for BB...
Please stop being so rude with us, stop rejecting our apps because it's only a distinction, there's no money engaged anymore.
It's a win win situation because BFBB apps have to be updated for new BB10 device like the Q10 and so on...
02-22-2013 05:30 AM
Wow, 9 pages of thread. Understandable though, as this is an important issue to all of us, and good to see that BlackBerry is monitoring the feedback.
I am quite delighted to see that Alec Saunders created a forum account specifically to give some feedback here.
I very much doubt that you could get this kind of interaction on another development platform!
Back to topic, BFBB:
My biggest point of critique are the lousy response mails. If my first mail would have looked like the one TheMarco just posted it would have been good feedback.
We got this as "feedback":
This is not helpful at all. It did not offer the possibility of reaching out to the reviewer directly. It did not offer anything specific.
In Amsterdam on the BB Jam i talked to the BFBB team and went through our application, and last week i got an email that we are in the "final stages" and will most likely get approved.
Still, this was a shortcut not available to every developer, and the standard process seems deeply flawed to me.
In the Elite sessions we were very vocal about the feedback issue, and i hope that the message TheMarco got shows the improvement in this area.
I would wish for a documented process like this:
- you get a rejection mail that lists all reasons, like the one from TheMarco
- you can fix them and re-apply
- if you get feedback like "single purpose app, add more functionality" there should be a clearing instance above that you can write to.
- Create the possibility of adding an explaination to the submission, like "click this button to do stuff" or "search for this to get all the functionality", as some applications may be hard to test without any guidelines.
02-22-2013 05:49 AM
Thanks for joining the discussion simon.
If you are impressed by the 9 pages of discussion I would like to point you to this thread:
Rejected app for built for Blackberry without specific details
13 Pages, basically the same discussion, rant, anger - this thread "This program is a joke" here is just a reincarnation. Not to mention all the small ones like "Question concerning UI guidelines", "An other app rejection" or the discussions which happens at other places.
Just a proof that something went a little bit wrong...
02-22-2013 07:41 AM
Appreciate your patience folks. We know the program is not functioning the way we intended, and we'll have more details on what we intend to do later today.
It's a work in progress, clearly.
A